No compromise on Indonesia’s sovereignty

While Indonesia enjoys good ties with China, Jakarta will not compromise on sovereignty issues, in particular over the Natuna Islands in the South China Sea, said President Joko Widodo in an interview with BBC’s Yalda Hakim. Below is an excerpt from the interview, in which Mr Widodo also spoke about the threat of terrorism as well as his government’s economic priorities and tax amnesty programme.

When you came to power as President two years ago, your victory was described as historic, and many Indonesians saw it as the beginning of a new era. Do you think you have lived up to people’s expectations?

People’s expectations were too high. But I have worked hard to finish what I can and to fulfil their expectations. That is the most important thing. One example is health — we have provided healthcare so that people who are struggling economically can go to the hospital and not have to pay.

For poor families, we have also introduced the Indonesian smart class so that they can send their children to school until high school for free. To improve the economy in the villages and in remote areas, we have also increased the amount of money going directly to the villages. We have given 20 trillion rupiah (S$2.2 billion) last year for villagers and 40 trillion this year — I think this will have an impact.

Were you surprised by how big the task was?

Yes, it’s a nation of 250 million. It’s a huge nation. I was also shocked when I became President and I have to look after 17,000 islands, look after 250 million people. That is not an easy task. There are around 340 ethnic groups in Indonesia — different skin colour, different hair, different local languages …. That is the extraordinary diversity of Indonesia. But with the support of my people, one by one we are dealing with the problems we need to deal with.

One thing you have been keen to do since you came to power is reassert Indonesia’s sovereignty. This month you inspected a military exercise by your air force in the South China Sea. What message were you sending?

The first thing is that, before, there were 7,000 illegal fishing vessels that were stealing our fish and I said stop that. We have sunk 239 illegal shipping vessels. This is our natural resources; this is Indonesian wealth … so from now on, illegal fishing vessels cannot play around with us. The second thing is, Natuna is our territory. Natuna is in Indonesia. So if we want to do military operations, war games, then it’s our right.

In terms of sovereignty, I will never compromise. But with all nations, we have good relations. We are good with China, with America, with Japan, with South Korea and with Russia.

You have said that Indonesia is not a claimant in the South China Sea but, according to China, there’s a clear overlap between Chinese (nine-dash lines marking its territory) and Indonesian waters near the Natuna Islands.

Indonesia is not a claimant state, but stability and security are needed in this area so that we can improve the economy for the good of our people. In the South China Sea, we will solve this problem through dialogue. Asean has 49 years of experience in this.

An important thing happened earlier this year — a United Nations-backed tribunal ruled that China has no historic rights to the resources within the waters and that its actions there were aggravating tensions. Do you agree with this?

I think everything can be solved with dialogue.

China says the ruling is illegitimate. Does China respect international law?

We are part of Asean. I spoke with the Chinese President and as far as I know, they respect international law.

China is ignoring the rules. They keep fishing in your waters. You keep blowing up their boats. Is this how it will continue?

This is just an illegal-fishing problem, we will solve that. It’s not a problem.

You have been assertive, you have stood up to China and you have changed the tone since coming to power. Was that part of your plan when you became President two years ago? Was China acting like a bully in the region?

If you look at our relationship, our relationship is very good. Chinese investment in our country has increased. We have a good relationship with them. Good business relationships. Tourism has also increased from China.

Your counterpart in the Philippines, President Rodrigo Duterte — whom you met just last month — uses vigilante death squads. Would you consider introducing that here?

I will follow the laws that Indonesia already has. Our laws allow for the death penalty. So that’s what we follow. We will follow the laws.

Your anti-narcotics police chief said he’d like to replicate the Philippines’ policy in this country … he thinks it’s a good idea …

We will follow the laws in Indonesia. The head of the police force will follow the laws of Indonesia.

Many people have been convicted but there are questions whether they are guilty, your legal system has problems with corruption, some were mentally ill ….

We are working hard to deal with corruption in our country. Nine ministers, 19 governors, 300 more local leaders, 100 parliamentarians are in jail because of corruption. We are harsh and strict on corruption. We will be consistent in our harshness to improve the situation.

In your favour, you have appointed nine women to senior Cabinet roles … was that something you wanted to do when you first came to power — promote women in politics?

For my Cabinet, I just made decisions based on people’s skills, experience, their willingness to make brave and difficult decisions, their knowledge of the area. I didn’t look at whether they were male or female. But it turns out that there are nine women in the Cabinet and they are doing a great job and are loved because they are decisive and they are doing good work.

Another big theme of your Presidency has, of course, been the economy. You have travelled around the country over the past two years, you talk to people — what are people saying? Have things improved for them?

We are focusing on building our infrastructure. We are also reforming the bureaucracy and are changing laws so that there are no barriers for economic reform. This is what people want, it’s what businesses want, it’s what foreign investors want.

So we are building tolls, ports, airports, train lines. That’s what we are concentrating on, so that the cost of transport will go down and that will mean that people can get things cheaper. We also want to speed up the licences … so we are deregulating the economy. We have economic stimulus packages to make it easier for foreign investors to enter Indonesia and build infrastructure and build up the manufacturing industry. We are in a process of opening up Indonesia and we are in a process of improving our competitiveness.

There’s been a lot of praise for your tax amnesty scheme. CitiBank has called it one of the world’s most successful tax amnesties. It has already added US$7.4 billion (S$10.2 billion) to the state coffers, but is it fair?

It’s not really about how much money we earn from it, how much money is repatriated. The most important thing is this is the start of reforming the tax system in Indonesia. We want to expand the tax system in Indonesia. We want to improve the tax system. And we want to build trust and faith among people in our tax system so that the industry and businesses that pay taxes, they believe that their money will go to the good of the country and be used to build things.

What about the thousands of workers who came out onto the streets to protest, saying it unfairly pardons wealthy tax dodgers?

It’s normal, this is a democracy. There were lots of people who were pessimistic … there were lots of people who used the hashtag #stoppayingtax, people challenged it in the constitutional court and there were people who demonstrated on the street. That’s normal. But the important thing is that people support this programme.

You came to power two years ago as the leader of the most populous Muslim country in the world … Islam is in turmoil and people are looking to Muslim leaders to take a stance but Indonesia’s voice is not being heard …

Indonesian Islam is tolerant. Indonesian Islam is moderate. Indonesian Islam is modern. We have the biggest Muslim population in the world. Islam and democracy can work together, they are compatible.

But you cannot say it is not an issue here. Indonesia has sent hundreds of militants to fight for Islamic State — some of them from your hometown Solo where we are now.

Lots of countries are facing the same problem. Not just Indonesia. Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in the world. Indonesia is moderate, tolerant and modern. If there are a few people who go to Syria, I think it’s the same as lots of countries. We want to work with other countries and share information so that not too many people go to Syria and we want to reduce militancy and terrorism.

Are you going to outlaw the Islamic Defenders Front, who have been protesting in recent days (saying non-Muslims cannot be leaders in this country)?

Once again, we are a democratic country. Anyone can hold demonstrations. The important thing is that they do not become violent. I always tell political leaders and religious leaders to actively work to cool down the situation to ease tensions, don’t provoke or stoke the tensions and divisions.

What is your message to the world to counter the extremist narratives? Don’t you have a responsibility as the leader of the world’s most populous Muslim nation to get that message out there?

I want to share our experience here that, in Indonesia, Islam and democracy work in partnership. We have reduced terrorism and radicalism with a unique and better strategy. Other countries use hard power, make changes to the law, but in Indonesia, we have soft power. We work through religious and cultural groups and we can see that this strategy works much better than hard power.

Column: Yalda Hakim’s interview with President Joko Widodo will be shown on BBC World News throughout the day today and this weekend.